- [Narrator] Funding for this edition of Think Tank with Steve Adubato has been provided by Holy Name.

New Jersey Public Charter Schools Association PSE&G.

Powering progress.

Robert Wood Johnson Foundation.

Working to create a future where health is no longer a privilege, but a right.

Johnson & Johnson.

EJI, Excellence in Medicine Awards.

A New Jersey health foundation program.

The Fund for New Jersey.

Newark Board of Education.

And by The Turrell Fund, a foundation serving children.

Promotional support provided by ROI-NJ.

Informing and connecting businesses in New Jersey.

And by New Jersey Globe.

[MOTIVATIONAL MUSIC] - Hey, everyone, Steve Adubato, welcome to part two of a two-part series that we did up at Montclair State University in cooperation with their College of Communication and Media.

I sat down with Dr.

Jonathan Koppell, President of MSU, Montclair State University, part of our series looking at Media Leadership and Innovation.

In part two, the final part of this Think Tank and One-on-One special, we talked to Jonathan Koppell about the following: Artificial intelligence and college education.

How to engage students in the democratic, small D, process.

Getting students to care to be civically engaged.

The value of nonpartisan media and the role of higher education in media.

And finally, reasons why Dr.

Koppell believes we should be, with all the challenges, optimistic.

Optimistic about our future, optimistic about our students and college today.

Part two, with Dr.

Jonathan Koppell.

- Hi, everyone, this is Steve Adubato.

We're coming to you once again from MSU, Montclair State University.

This is Presentation Hall.

You can see behind us, this is coming to you in cooperation with the College of Communication and Media.

This is "Think Tank with me, Steve Adubato," as opposed to some other "Think Tank."

We had a conversation last time with Dr.

Jonathan Koppell, the President here at MSU, part of an initiative we call "Media Leadership and Innovation," which is really about leadership, innovation, the future of higher ed, the role of higher ed and media, and a whole range of other issues.

Before we go any further, we have a great studio audience.

This is homecoming here at MSU.

Put your hands- (audience applauding) Jonathan, did you prompt everyone every time I said homecoming, just to applaud?

Is that what you did?

(audience applauding) So, let's do this, outta the box what's interesting is, there's a question here that I was thinking about as well.

Talk to us, Mr.

President, about artificial intelligence, AI, MSU and higher ed, please.

- So, I think it's a profound phenomenon that's gonna reshape how society works, right?

- [Steve] Yeah.

- It's funny the way the conversation, I think, has focused within higher ed on cheating, right?

That's what everyone, oh, does this mean that students will cheat on exams and papers and so on?

And the answer to that is sure, because that's all students have always looked for a quick way to cheat.

So, that's a thing, and there has to be solutions to that.

People are already coming up with solutions to that.

Whether it's different tools of assessment, more oral exams, like that's a solvable problem.

- Cheating is not new?

- No, cheating is not new.

- Can I disclose something here?

- Yeah, oh, my God.

(audience laughing) You know, degrees can be taken back.

(all laughing) (audience applauding) - [Steve] Yeah.

- Just be careful before you say too much.

- So, you heard about my library fines, so (laughing) and parking tickets.

But how about this one?

I will admit that when I was studying political science here with a great faculty, I purchased a term paper for 40 bucks, I think.

And what you don't have to say, ooh, what are you?

Well, you never did anything wrong.

I didn't do the work in the course.

Should have written it myself.

The professor, Professor Johnson at the time called me in and said, "Talk to me about the Middle East."

And I went, "Oh, God, I'm in trouble."

He caught me and I had to retake the course.

Now, my son Chris, is in the room.

Chris, I'm sorry, you had to hear that publicly.

The bar has been raised in our family for education and ethics, translation, while AI is not new, excuse me, cheating is not new, how much easier does AI make cheating for college students, please?

- It probably makes it easier.

I don't think that's actually the, but I don't actually think that's the interesting thing about it.

- You don't?

- No, because as, because people have cheated, and I don't think that's really that remarkable.

People will cheat then there'll be a solution, fine.

To me- - You gotta take the course again.

- To me, the question is, how will people learn?

And does the use of artificial intelligence change the way we learn?

Does it create opportunities to learn differently?

I think that in the educational context is quite exciting.

And I've seen applications and, 'cause I'm quite interested in knowing how the future is gonna unfold.

I've seen applications that really do blow your mind, right?

Where there's an AI tutor that doesn't just give you the answer, but it asks you questions and it helps you create study notes by asking you questions about the content you just saw.

- Does the student have to think?

- Yes, because it's not giving it to you.

It actually asks you questions.

And in some ways, it's funny, I was thinking about an AI tutor working with my children as compared to me working with my own children.

And eventually, and I'm sure a lot of us can sympathize with, eventually, it's like, just gimme the keyword, I'll type it myself.

- [Steve] Right.

- The AI doesn't lose patience.

If it's right, it'll keep asking questions like, hey, you know, why don't you take a shot at it?

Now, obviously, if you tell it to give you the answer, it will.

- Right.

- And so it's gonna change the way we interact.

So, increasingly you're seeing faculty will say to a student, you can use AI, but you have to turn in the dialogue between you and the AI as part of your work.

- Show the work.

Now, again, then you can say to an AI, generate a dialogue that looks like I used AI.

(Steve laughing) - Wait a minute.

- So, no, that's true.

So, but that's why I'm saying like, to the extent it's an arms race, that's always been a thing that's been a thing in the history of education.

To my mind, the more profound question is, are we preparing students for a world where this is reality?

'Cause we can talk about what happens in the classroom.

- Yep.

- But it's also happening in the world.

And so the question is, what will be the nature of jobs?

What will be the nature of life?

Are we preparing students to deal with that?

And that means we have to be utilizing that technology and thinking about how it changes what we do in the classroom, operationally.

And so, I mean, I think we are at the very, very beginning of a transformative period driven by this technology.

We're studying and learning as much as possible.

But I think that the cheating part is the least, in some ways, the least interesting part of it.

Which isn't to say that you don't have to deal with it, it's just, I think that's the tip of the iceberg in terms of the change that it represents.

- Doctor, should I have shared in front of everyone that I purchased a term paper on the Middle East?

- It's an interesting question, right?

I, you know, what did you take away from that experience?

- That I was not very good at cheating.

(all laughing) (audience applauding) No, in all seriousness- - Yeah.

- I was so lazy.

I was having such a good time here at MSU.

I was involved in student government, I wrote for the great paper, "The Montclarion."

Put your hands together for "The Montclarion."

(audience applauding) As I was mentioned, my friend Tim before here at MSU, we had fun, did we not?

(muffled speech) Yes, we did.

And I had too much fun in too many situations.

And I did not do what I needed to do on a course dealing with foreign affairs because I was more interested in having a good time.

And I was very provincial in my thinking.

New Jersey was my world.

And the truth is, at the last minute I said, wow, I'm gonna fail if I don't do something.

And instead of doing what I should have done, taken incomplete, acknowledge it and own it, which is a leadership coach, I talk about that all the time.

My kids hear that, "Oh, what are you gonna own?

Dad, what are you gonna own?"

I'm gonna own the fact that I got lazy, and I cheated because it was the easiest way out.

But then I paid the price and it had a great impact on me.

- Yeah, so I think you sharing that- - I think that deserves applause right now.

(audience applauding) - So, I think- - That's pandering, I know, but go ahead.

- To answer your question though, I think you sharing that is useful, right?

That is to say people, if people hear your bio, they heard all the- - They don't see that.

- They heard the successes, they didn't hear about the stumbles- - No.

- And the failures and the shortcomings.

You gotta hear both.

You know, you look at resume, like you look at my resume and you see a lot of nice looking things.

- Good stuff.

- You don't see all the rejection letters, you don't see all the things that I applied for and didn't get.

You don't see any of that, you see only the successes.

I do think it's important to share those stories.

It's also interesting, you know, I was thinking about it when you said it.

So, okay, so you cheated, so what did the professor do?

They didn't say, oh, go redo it and you'll still pass the class- - Got an F.

- You failed and you had, which was appropriate, you should have failed.

But you also didn't, but you- - I should have- - Should have.

- I should have.

- But you also didn't get expelled from the university and said, you're not worth another chance and you're done here.

And I think that that's an important point too, because people are flawed and they make mistakes.

And I think it would've been an error to say, you've made a mistake and now you're done at the university.

So, I'm actually pleased to hear the way that was handled.

There should be accountability.

But you shouldn't cut people off from a future.

I mean, we do this as a society.

I mean, to take your individual story and extrapolate it, we incarcerate an awful lot of people in this country, and we make it close to impossible for people to get back on track post-incarceration if you have a felony conviction, and that's just wrong.

And so we, you know, we have to have a culture that gives people the opportunity to make right.

- You know, it's interesting, put your hands together.

(audience applauding) So, I'm curious about this.

This is a leadership question.

I've been teaching and coaching, writing about leadership for years.

Jonathan knows we've had conversations on the air about leadership.

I'm curious, and this wasn't asked by the audience member or any audience member, I didn't think of it before, but it's hit me now because of what you're saying.

And I don't want to go off on a tangent, but here's what it is.

I'm a, as a student of leadership, I'm fascinated by how few people in leadership positions own their mistakes, and how obsessed they are with, I don't make mistakes and acknowledging a mistake, acknowledging a shortcoming is a weakness.

From your point of view, how important is it for a leader of a university like MSU for you to acknowledge a mistake has been made and that you own it on behalf of the community and here's what I learned from it, and here's what we're gonna do moving forward, as opposed to we don't acknowledge mistakes?

- Well, I'm perfectly comfortable acknowledging mistakes.

I certainly acknowledge personal mistakes and try to learn from it.

That's the main reason you have to acknowledge mistakes 'cause otherwise, how are you gonna get better?

I think unfortunately we do live in a moment where acknowledging mistakes in some sense is not rewarded.

That is to say- - Rewarded meaning what?

- That it's treated as a gotcha, not as I think your question implies- - It's an attribute.

- Saying, hey, I made a judgment call, it turned out to be the wrong one.

Or there was a shortcoming, or the university didn't work exactly the way it was supposed to, we messed up and we'll get it right in the future.

I get a whole lot of emails from people who have this challenge or whatever.

- Sure.

- Billing error, like whatever, all kinds of things.

And a lot of times you just gotta say, yeah, you're right.

We're sorry- - We screwed up.

- We're sorry, let's do what we can to- - But we screwed up.

See here, I don't- - I don't think there's anything wrong with it.

- Well, here's the only thing, and again, I'm gonna put a pin in this because I also wanna manage time and there's so many other issues.

I have this theory that if we only own and acknowledge mistakes when we're confident that the outcome won't be bad, doesn't work.

You own it because that's, to me, what leadership is about.

You don't want the consequence to be terrible, you wanna be able to stay in the game, you don't wanna get canceled.

But if we're calculating what we think the outcome will be and only acknowledge when it's safe, it doesn't work, right?

Let's move on.

- Yeah, okay.

- Message to your students here at MSU and students because we're engaged with a whole range of higher ed institutions.

And so you're talking to their parents, those students about this question.

Given what young people in colleges and universities see today, President Koppell in our leaders, the weakness of our leaders, the blaming of others, the finger pointing of others, the name calling, the childish actions of our government officials, the inability to get anything meaningful done, the gotcha mentality, the whose side are you on?

Why the heck should they get engaged and involved in civic life?

- Yeah, so I could go on at some length on this.

- Well, we're on the clock, so.

(all laughing) - So, first of all, I don't know that everybody sees it exactly the way you just described it.

That is to say there's still, there are people out there doing remarkable things.

I understand that that's not in the headlines, but there are people out there doing remarkable things.

And even, and I, you know, I realize that what I'm about to say is gonna be difficult for some people to swallow, but even some people who support the current administration in the White House, right?

And there are a lot of people in this country who are enthusiastic about what is going on.

- Absolutely.

- Whether you disagree or not, there are millions of people who are enthusiastic about it, and they feel empowered because they voted for something and got change that they wanted.

Again, agnostic as to whether you agree with it- - Sure.

- Or not.

I don't think anybody can look at the world we inhabit today and say, why would anybody get involved in elections?

It doesn't matter, they're all the same.

- So, what would you say to them?

- I heard that a lot.

You know, I heard that a lot over the years.

Like, it doesn't matter, I vote for them, I vote for her, you get the same outcome.

- You don't think it's more challenging now?

- No, no, but wait a second.

So, the question is to you, if you say, how can you say to somebody, you should get involved in civic affairs?

I would look and say, how can you not get involved in civic affairs?

(audience applauding) Right?

And by the way, and by the way, not from one side or another, because you could say, because whatever side you are on getting involved in civic affairs has a massive effect on what happens- - Absolutely.

- In the world.

So, I think that's an important point as we sit here at what is undoubtedly a challenging moment.

It turns out however, that I think you're right, that a lot of people see, particularly when you look towards the federal realm, they're like, oh my God.

Like, I don't see how my involvement, my- - My voice.

- My throwing myself into that arena is gonna make a difference.

What I've seen is that young people are therefore increasingly attracted to local action, right?

So, they're interested in getting involved in their neighborhood, in their community, in their city.

And I think the reason why that's more appealing is because you can see tangibly the result of your action.

- Absolutely.

- Right?

If you work on an issue like housing in a particular neighborhood, and you see, you know, where there once was a weed strewn lot and now there's an apartment complex- - Food insecurity.

- Or you can help people find the resources that they need to eat to feed their family- - That's right.

- You see the connection between what your hands did and how somebody else lives their life, and that's what I think, that's what young people in particular are eager to see, is that their action makes a difference.

And the trouble is that the distance between what you do if you're a staff member on the hill and how that affects somebody's life, is so vast that it's harder for people to wrap their brains around.

- What you just described, Jonathan, is tangible, is relevant, is accessible and relatable for most people.

And that's important because if civic engagement is only seen as running for office or getting a job on the hill or in the State House.

And what's also not in my resume is soon after I left Montclair State and went to that other university that wears red and I got my Master's, before I did my Doctoral work, I ran for the state legislature and I was the youngest person elected to the state legislature.

I was running at 25.

What you don't see in my bio, at 27, I was the youngest person to lose his seat in the state legislature, you do not see that there.

(all laughing) So, that's not the only way to be involved?

- No, not at all.

- Okay, so talk about involvement.

- So, I think, so one of the reasons why I've tried to uplift public service- - That's right.

- As a defining feature of this university is, first of all, I think public service in and of itself is a good thing.

- Yes.

- Right?

It's important for people to realize that we have an opportunity and obligation to do something to help other folks.

- That's right.

- And to go back to the question of the value of a university.

The value of a university is A, not only measured in the salary implications of getting a degree, but also in terms of the ways in which you empower people to make a difference, and the way that the university itself makes a difference.

So, we need to reinforce those values.

It turns out however, that if you do public service, and if you are working on whether it's public safety or housing or food insecurity and you get involved in those issues, you almost can't help, but think about the public policy- - That's right.

- And issues around them and say, well, why don't I get involved in that too?

- Yes.

- And so I think, that the value of involving people in public service is, it kind of pulls you into the civic realm in a way that's super constructive- - Well said.

Speaking, I think we have about five minutes left.

This is for those of you just tuning in or you're seeing us streaming wherever, this is a "Think Tank" series.

We've been doing "Think Tank" for about a dozen years in connection with our partners in public media.

You may not have heard, there's still public media in the world that matters.

And MSU is very engaged in that process.

And we'll talk about that in a moment.

But I'm gonna say this to you, this is a two-part conversation that we are producing at our production company, the Caucus Educational Corporation, "Think Tank," along with, as you can see, the College of Communication and Media right here at MSU.

So, in that spirit, here's my question.

So, this course I'm teaching in the spring on media leadership and innovation talks in part about the future of media and how universities like MSU, who are very engaged in civic dialogue, who are doing things like this, which is not the norm for every university and college, question, what do you see as the role for Montclair State University in the future, not just of public media, but of media that matters and has impact on this state and nation?

- Well- - Not just your cooking show.

- No.

(all laughing) - Which matters.

- But that does matter.

- No, no, it does matter, go ahead.

(all laughing) - It does matter.

I think there's an opportunity for universities to fill in a space that has been left vacant by the way the media landscape has evolved, where there used to be however you, whatever you want to describe as its shortcoming.

But as you know, it used to be a legal requirement that broadcast networks were supposed to present all sides of an issue.

Now, I'm not saying that that was perfect and it didn't have issues associated with that approach, but when that went away and we allowed for networks to become basically stake out ideological neighborhoods, there really wasn't a place where the average viewer could find at least an attempt to present an unfiltered version of reality.

- Without a point of view?

- Without a point of view.

And where neutrality wasn't represented by having two yammering chuckleheads that disagreed with each other.

- Now, chuckleheads would be a scholarly term.

(all laughing) And that a lot of what you described is what a lot of mainstream cable media is.

- I can't stand it, I don't watch it myself, and I consider myself an informed person.

I can't watch people yapping at each other.

- And we don't participate in that, so go ahead.

- And so, but the reality is, and you know this better than I, that does get ratings and the more neutral- - Clicks.

- Clicks, exactly.

Even worse, right?

- That's a losing game.

- And so universities can play a different role, right?

We can say we are going to, we are gonna offer something other.

And I'm excited that part of our College of Media Communications, we have initiatives that are all about creating news that brings people together, that creates a diversity of opinion, not dissimilar to public service, that's easier around local news.

- [Steve] That's right.

- And so we do emphasize local news in that work.

But I think there's an opportunity to broaden it out and say, how do we create a true public, right?

- That's right.

- For the public purpose, public media- - That's right.

- That is intended to serve the entire public, not one faction or one segment thereof?

- This is a skewed audience.

By applause, who's in favor of independent, public, meaningful media?

(audience applauding) I mean, that was a layup.

Reason, there are many, to be optimistic.

For everyone who is here at the MSU homecoming, everyone who's watching on whatever platform you're watching us on, reason to be optimistic, not just about higher ed, not just about MSU, and not just about the State of New Jersey, but for our country, the reason to be- - That is a layup.

- One big one.

- No, that is it.

The students.

The students are not deterred by what's going on.

They are not cynical about the opportunities for the future, they're actually motivated.

I think they may say, you people need to get out of the way because you're screwing everything up for me, but they are confident and ready to go at it.

They don't wanna wait to do the classes and work for 10 years, they want to get into it right now.

Some people say, well, that's arrogant.

And these kids, you know, they think they're gonna be in the C-suite on their first day.

There's a little bit of truth to that.

But you know what?

I'll take the arrogance as the price to be paid for the confidence and the enthusiasm and the eagerness.

(audience applauding) That- - And some of us, hold on, While you're applauding, you're saying some of us should get out of the way?

- Yes.

(all laughing) Yes.

- Are you're applauding for that too?

(audience applauding) - I don't blame em- - But we do need to get outta the way.

- I don't blame 'em, if they look at, they're like, this is what you're leaving to me?

I don't blame 'em, and so- - That's the optimistic note?

- Yes, because they're not dissuaded.

The attitude of students here at Montclair, but, and other- - Yes.

- They're not like hunkering down and curling up in a ball under their bed.

They're saying like, let me add it.

Let me do better than you people are doing, that's- - That's a reason- - That's confidence.

Absolutely.

(audience applauding) - So, (audience applauding) that concludes two compelling half hours of "Think Tank" done in cooperation with Montclair State.

You see that the College of Communication and Media a huge part of this.

I look forward to ongoing conversations, and I wanna thank the team that no one sees behind that glass in the control room.

One more time for the great Control Room team.

(audience applauding) - Team of Montclair State University students.

- To all the Montclair State University students.

(audience applauding) To the incredibly successful MSU alums.

- Yeah.

(audience applauding) (Jonathan and Steve laughing) And Steve.

- And me, oh, outside of that.

(all laughing) And for Dr.

Jonathan Koppell.

(audience applauding) - Thank you.

Thank you.

- By the way, that hurt (chuckles) I'm Steve Adubato.

This is "Think Tank" in cooperation with MSU University.

Make sure you catch "Think Tank" every week on public broadcasting and streaming on a whole range of other services.

Thank you to the team at MSU, we'll see you next time.

(audience applauding) - Very good.

That was good.

- That was fun.

- [Narrator] Think Tank with Steve Adubato is a production of the Caucus Educational Corporation.

Funding has been provided by Holy Name.

New Jersey Public Charter Schools Association PSE&G.

Robert Wood Johnson Foundation.

Johnson & Johnson.

EJI, Excellence in Medicine Awards.

A New Jersey health foundation program.

The Fund for New Jersey.

Newark Board of Education.

And by The Turrell Fund, a foundation serving children.

Promotional support provided by ROI-NJ.

And by New Jersey Globe.

- (Narrator) Since 1903, PSEG has worked to keep our commitment to customers and communities, to keep your lights on and homes warm.

We’re there when challenges strike like storms or economic uncertainty.

We're preparing for tomorrow by working to replace aging infrastructure, provide carbon free nuclear energy, and deliver energy efficient options to customers.

PSEG, powering progress.