- [Narrator] Funding for this edition of One-On-One with Steve Adubato has been provided by Holy Name.

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- This is One-On-One.

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(upbeat music) - Hi, everyone.

Steve Adubato.

Welcome to "One-on-One."

We kick off the program with our good friend Warren Zanes, who is the author of "Deliver Me From Nowhere: The Making of Bruce Springsteen's 'Nebraska.'"

Warren has been with us in the past.

By way of background, he is a PhD professor at NYU, a "New York Times" bestselling author, a accomplished musician.

And it's great to have you again, Warren.

Good to see you.

- Good to see you.

- By the way, let everyone know, we were talking before you got on the air, Your background is fascinating.

The Del Fuegos, band that you've been connected to for how long?

- [Warren] Oh, since 1983.

- 1983.

Your love of music comes from where?

- If I were to locate any origin, it would be my mother's record collection.

She had good records.

She had Dylan, she had The Beatles, she had Aretha Franklin, she had Pete Seeger.

And I came out of the womb and the records were already playing.

- My wife and I just watched the film.

You had a big hand in the film as well, did you not, Warren?

- I did.

And it was an education.

And it was a deeply moving, satisfying experience for me.

- You've known Springsteen for how long?

- Boy, I was a teenager when I first met him.

And I'm not sure how much he would remember that, but I won't ever forget it.

But we were playing in North Carolina and he jumped on stage with my band.

You know, to see a hero step into your three-dimensional space, it was a turning point.

- It's amazing.

I'm just trying to imagine what that might be like.

Warren, let me ask you this.

"Nebraska," I thought I knew what the album was about.

I thought I knew some of the songs, but then I went back, listened to the album again, and then read the genesis of "Nebraska."

Put "Nebraska" in context as to why it's such a significant album at a significant time, 1982, in Springsteen's musical evolution.

- Yeah, I mean, "Nebraska," I say "Nebraska" is the greatest left turn in the history of popular music.

And I say that because Springsteen's prior record was "The River," and it was his first number one record and his first Top 10 single.

And that's the point at which people can really hit lift off and go from stardom to superstardom.

And there are no other artists who have failed to show up for that opportunity.

But Springsteen put out this record that was unfinished, it was imperfect.

It was recorded on a cassette in his bedroom.

Bruce and his guitar for the most part.

A record never meant to be a record, but he felt like that recording captured the songs and he insisted on releasing it.

There's so many lessons to really learn from that.

But for me, one of them is sometimes the best version of a thing is the one that is not perfect.

- So did the film get it right?

As I was watching Springsteen in his bedroom, it was in Jersey, right?

- Yeah.

Colt's Neck.

- And who was with him?

Because he did not have a big team around him.

It looked like only had one person with him for most of it.

And it was a cassette recorder.

He did it largely by himself.

- Largely by himself.

Mike Batlan, who is his guitar roadie, but not an engineer, not a producer, was running this cassette recorder, but he's reading the manual in order to use it.

So you didn't have professionals in the room.

And Bruce really wanted the experience of feeling like there was nobody there.

- But, the reaction, Warren, on the part of music executives, right.

They thought it was weird.

They thought this won't sell.

Many of them thought, "What are you doing?

This isn't what you should be doing after 'The River.'

You should be capitalizing on it big time."

- Yes.

- Why did he not care about.

I'm sorry for interrupting, Warren.

Why did he not care about what any of the so-called experts in the industry were telling him?

- Because there's a certain point where an artist has had enough success and if they are the kind of artist that interests me, they've got to listen to their inner voice.

And he just had a very powerful inner voice at that time saying, "This is what you put out."

But to the credit of those record executives, it was weird, it was strange.

Like, I assure you, if I was in the position Bruce was in, I never would've released a "Nebraska."

I would've gone for everything I could have gotten in that moment.

That he didn't, sets him apart.

- I think we're the same that way.

I would've probably cashed in too.

- Yeah.

- But what strikes me is, as I tried to understand, again, I'll use the word genesis, the genesis of "Nebraska" in 1982, what does it have to do with the 1958 murder spree in Nebraska involving this guy, Charles Starkweather, and his accomplice?

They killed many people, including members of her family, a mass murder?

What is the correlation between that and the album?

- Yeah, well there are multiple answers to that.

You know, I'll give you one is that when... So Bruce was inspired by Terrence Malik's film "Badlands," which was about murder spree.

And so he writes a song inspired by it, and it's written in the third person.

It's about Charles Starkweather.

In the process of writing, Bruce shifts it so it's the first person.

It's Bruce Springsteen singing in the aftermath of a murder spree from the electric chair.

And I think what he's connecting to is that moment when people can really come completely off the rails.

They're in society, and then there's a turn in the road, and they're no longer in society.

And we're closer, I think this is the way Bruce was thinking is, we're closer to that danger than we realize.

And it was the people who had really fallen off, who no longer had any mooring, who were interesting to Bruce at that time 'cause he felt like he might be one of them.

- Bruce Springsteen has talked openly and you talk about it in the book, depression, anxiety at that time was really serious for him.

Please talk about that, Warren.

- Yeah, and I mean, this is one of the reasons I think Bruce Springsteen is a really brave artist.

We see a lot of people tidying up the scene before they present themselves as public figures.

And Bruce, in that time, as you say, he was really getting to a point where he had to address his experience of depression, his experience of anxiety.

Some childhood trauma was coming to the fore and making it hard for him to live the adult life that he wanted to.

And "Nebraska" is the record he's making while he's going through all of this.

The record's a reflection of that experience.

I think, you know, he's been talking about this for some time openly, and again, bravely.

Releasing this movie right now, we are in the midst of a mental health epidemic that is largely unaddressed in my view.

That's Bruce Springsteen saying, "I'm gonna tell this story in a big way, right now, when more people than ever need to hear it."

And to me, that's what the movie is about.

But you could not do any of it, you couldn't do the book, you couldn't do the movie, without Bruce Springsteen being willing to lay bare his own life.

- Warren, this is not about "Nebraska," but we are taping this toward the end of January, 2026.

Let's just say that the things going on in our country right now, the word polarized is overused, but it's appropriate.

And chaos is what it is.

And what's going on as we're speaking in Minnesota is what it is.

People can have their own perspective on that.

But I was watching some video of Bruce in a concert, I believe it was a charity concert recently, and I know you saw it, in which he directly addressed what is going on as he perceives it in Minneapolis, in Minnesota.

And he literally called what happened.

And again, I hope I'm not dating myself in saying this because there's been one murder on camera or one killing on camera.

It'll be adjudicated however it is.

He literally called it murder.

He talked about the role of ICE.

He chooses to be incredibly political and say what he believes even if in the process, there are many friends of mine who love Springsteen's music and hate his politics, he does not care, does he, Warren?

- It's very clear that Bruce Springsteen is going to say what he feels he has to say.

And there are too many people out in the world right now making fear-based decisions.

And what we need modeled is people speaking their minds without fear directing what they say.

But there are a lot of people who are afraid to speak their truth because they'll lose position, they'll lose power, and it's contributing to the problem.

So we need not only Bruce Springsteen, we need 100 more of them.

- I don’t wanna... Let me just say.

I'm sorry for interrupting, Warren.

Many are watching right now saying, "But Springsteen's Springsteen."

I mean, he doesn't need the money.

How are you gonna hurt him?

He's so established.

I believe he's 76 years old and he's who he is.

He's the Boss.

You believe that what he is doing potentially emboldens others to be more courageous?

- Yeah, I think there are people who have a kind of pulpit, you know, a public position, and are not using it.

When I talk about fear-based decisions, I'm talking about people not using their position because they worry about the consequence of speaking their political truths.

So it may be that they see Bruce Springsteen stepping out 'cause there is risk.

Nobody's got a final arrival where there's no risk when you speak your mind in a hot political situation, but maybe seeing Bruce do it will make them consider doing it themselves.

And I believe that to be true.

- aBy the way, the title, why the title?

- The that line, "Deliver Me From Nowhere," it shows up in a couple songs on the "Nebraska" record.

And it's meaningful to me because when you see lines repeated in songs, it means the writer is still writing.

The work is not finished.

It hasn't been cleaned up for a final recording.

But also, "Deliver Me From Nowhere," it has two things in it.

It has the hopelessness of I am in nowhere and it has the hope of deliver me.

This person is not yet out of the game.

And that character interests me.

To speak from a place of despair, but still ask to be delivered.

And that's the intensity of "Nebraska."

It's people, some of them have lost their hope, but the ultimate message in saying "Deliver Me From Nowhere" is there might still be a chance.

- Hey, Warren, the song "Atlantic City" is on the album.

- Yes.

- That's a sad, depressing, powerful song that, I don't think you have to live in New Jersey or know Atlantic City a little bit to know it.

What the heck?

'Cause there's a line in there about a mob guy from Philadelphia, The Chicken Man, you know what I'm talking about, "They blew up The Chicken Man."

Springsteen understood in a very powerful way why Atlantic City matters and why it's a very sad place in spite of all the glitz and the casinos.

He got it.

- Yeah, it's a place that's profiting from people's dreams.

And because we dream hard as a people and it leaves us vulnerable to those who are going to act on greed.

And Atlantic City is the perfect symbol of that.

But, you know, "Nebraska," the characters in those songs are people way out at the edges.

And they're not people who feel like tomorrow's going to be better.

Really, they're lost people.

And it's an interesting record in Springsteen's arc because he's known for this kind of redemption.

We're gonna get out of this place.

We're gonna turn this around.

"Nebraska" doesn't have it.

"Nebraska" has a kind of despair at its heart that, you know, when Rolling Stone first reviewed it, they called it a shock.

It was shocking to people, not just because of its sound, but the absence of that redemption that Springsteen had been associated with.

And you need to hear it when you listen to that.

- When Springsteen performs now and people want to hear "Thunder Road," people want to hear "Born in the USA," they want to hear the Springsteen that makes them want to dance and party, et cetera, does he incorporate a significant amount of what is in the 1982 album "Nebraska" into his live performances?

- He puts some in there, but, you know, what are people going to a Bruce Springsteen show for?

You know, it's funny, like I will sometimes compare him to Tom Petty.

And I say with Tom Petty, "The show's."

- There's your Tom Petty book, by the way, that Warren wrote.

Go ahead, Tom.

Go ahead.

Warren.

- A Tom Petty show started when he started in on that first song and you understood.

It's like, "Oh, he's playing 'American Girl.'"

A Bruce Springsteen show starts when you know he's walking toward the stage.

It doesn't matter what song it is.

Everybody's there for something that's really close to a spiritual experience of community.

So yes, there's dancing, yes, there's singing along, but I think the ultimate thing is to be in that group bound by a love for this guy and what he's done.

So he, up there on the stage, he can bring the darker material, he can bring the, you know, a dance song, but it's all part of the same experience.

- Talking with Warren Zanes, who is a "New York Times" bestselling author, a PhD professor at NYU, been with The Del Fuegos for many years.

Your brother Dan, right?

I interviewed your brother Dan back in the day.

Tell everyone who your brother Dan is 'cause there's a connection here.

- Well, he is the guy who caused me all kinds of trouble when I was a teenager, but after The Del Fuegos, he started doing a kind of folk-based children's music.

He was seeing a landscape where there was Barney and not a whole lot else.

And he wanted a family music that parents could love as much as the kids did.

And I think it was a real turning point in what people thought of as children's music.

And, you know, my two sons were young when he got his Grammy, and it was like my brother was John Lennon from the view of a third grader.

- Yeah, and our kids, early on, loved that music.

And you should check out Dan Zanes.

But Warren, let me finish with Springsteen on this.

76, still as relevant, powerful, and he still is the Boss.

When he walks into The Stone Pony unannounced or someplace, it doesn't matter who's playing, it doesn't matter who is there, people know that it's extraordinarily special.

Why does he, and you know him well, why does he still do it and why does he still do it at the level he does with the intensity and passion he does at 76?

- Yeah, I mean, I think it's funny when people think of service work, they think of like what they're doing for someone else.

Like let's say it's work in a soup kitchen.

I'm going to do service work.

It's all focused on what another person is getting.

True service work feeds the person doing it as much as the person on the receiving end.

And I think Bruce goes into the world and does things like showing up at The Stone Pony, going back to Freehold, not for us, he's doing it for himself.

And that's true service work.

It keeps him connected to what he came from.

But it's like, I think we can make the mistake of forgetting how much is in it for him.

When he goes to The Stone Pony and he reconnects with that world, he's nurturing some part of himself.

There's a reason he's so strong up on stage.

And one of them is that he's never cut that umbilical cord to what he comes from.

- You know, I interviewed, and go check out our website, it'll be up right now, Steven Van Zant and also Max Weinberg.

We did it at New Jersey Performing Arts Center with Max.

And those are two powerful, incredibly important members of the E Street Band.

And they talked about Bruce.

Question.

Bruce's connection to the E Street Band, the members of the band.

Why is it so special after all this time?

And it hasn't always been easy 'cause Steven Van Zant in the interview told me he left.

He said, "We had to get away from each other," then they came back, they connected.

Max has been there from the beginning.

Why is he still connected in the way he's connected to people he's known for so long when it wasn't always easy?

- Yeah, well he talked about that in the interviews for "Deliver Me From Nowhere," saying like, you know, "Make no mistake, we've done the work."

It's not just like a happy family story.

It's like how does social units of any kind stay together?

It's people who do the work, you know.

The marriage, how does it stay together?

It's the couple that does the work.

- By the way, he was asked with Patty, his wife, he was asked the secret to a happy marriage and he just kept laughing.

He never even responded.

It's the work.

But go ahead, Warren.

Pick it up.

- Yeah, yeah, no, no, it's the work.

But that unit.

I mean, his awakening was Elvis, but his ticket into the game was The Beatles.

He was born in the age of the band.

Whether he is writing all the material or not, like the thing that got him going was this vision of a band.

And he's never fully departed from that.

There have been plenty of solo efforts, but there's something that happens for a person who's lucky enough to experience being up there with three other people, four other people, five other people, that can only happen in a group context.

And he's never turned his back on that.

And so to keep it alive, he's done the work staying connected with those guys.

- Last question.

We do a series with my colleague Jacqui Tricarico called "Remember Them," people from New Jersey who have passed, but have had a great impact on the state, on the nation, and the world in many cases.

It started with of course, a Sinatra, a retrospective.

And by the way, Springsteen likes Sinatra a lot.

Let's just say that.

Is Springsteen, in your view, the most significant New Jersey artist of all time?

- Wow, I don't know who I'd put in front of him.

You know, I don't know if he'd want that title, but I don't know who I would put in front of him.

And let me just say this.

I grew up in New Hampshire, and it was the second record, "The Wild, the Innocent & the E Street Shuffle," that woke us up.

And it was that sense of place.

I'd never seen a boardwalk.

I didn't know what he was describing, but I felt like it was a place that I belonged.

The way he put place into songs, I would compare him with Robbie Robertson's work with The Band.

Not too many artists can do that.

And it was Jersey.

And that I think is something we talk about a lot, but maybe not enough.

- Springsteen's extraordinary.

What a career.

What an impact.

He's still not just doing it, a lot of people do it as they get older, but doing it and the way he's doing it, why he's doing it, and making the impact speaks for itself.

Warren, I wanna thank you so much.

The book, again, is "Deliver Me From Nowhere."

Warren is also executive producer on the film.

This album needs to be heard.

It's important, it's significant, it's historically relevant, and I cannot thank you enough, Warren.

Come back next time.

We'll talk about Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers and a lot more.

And thank you so much, Warren.

We appreciate it.

All the best.

- Thank you, Steve.

- Hey, listen, thank you for watching.

And whether you're a Springsteen fan or not, can't imagine you not being, this is an important program.

We'll see you next time.

- [Narrator] One-On-One with Steve Adubato is a production of the Caucus Educational Corporation.

Funding has been provided by Holy Name.

Horizon Blue Cross Blue Shield of New Jersey.

Robert Wood Johnson Foundation.

PSE&G.

Johnson & Johnson.

The North Ward Center.

Congress Hall.

A Cape Resorts property.

Valley Bank.

And by New Jersey Public Charter Schools Association Promotional support provided by NJ.Com.

And by New Jersey Globe.

- (Narration) Healing is never just about medicine and technology.

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It has to be our best medicine, combined with large doses of empathy, kindness, dignity and respect.

It has to be delivered by people who love what they do and who they do it for.

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Great medicine, soul purpose.