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[MOTIVATIONAL MUSIC] - Hey, everyone.

Steve Adubato.

If you know our programming, you know that we care deeply about autism, about greater public awareness about autism, about those who are engaged and involved with people dealing with autism, family members, caregivers.

This is "Autism: The Power of Inclusion."

We have a terrific panel of experts who deal with these issues every day and make a difference every day.

Michele Adubato is the CEO of the North Ward Center and the founder of the Center for Autism.

Yes, my sister Michele.

And these other credentials are way more important than that.

Dr.

Suzanne Buchanan, not a relative, Executive Director of Autism New Jersey, and Pam Donovan, CEO and President and Founder of Ethan & the Bean.

It is great to have you all with us.

Michele, why are we calling this "The Power of Inclusion"?

What does that really mean beyond a slogan?

- Well, I mean, the power of inclusion means you belong here.

Everyone belongs here, including, of course, people with autism.

And for many, many years, people with autism, adults and children, were excluded, were marginalized, and really I think our autism community has come into our own.

- Jump on that, Suzanne.

Inclusion.

Translate it from a practical point of view for everyone watching, saying, "Well, I guess this program doesn't involve me because I don't think I have autism.

No one else I know does," which they're probably wrong about that.

And let them understand what it means to be part of this conversation, why it's so important.

- Yeah.

So, autism as a diagnosis means that you have difficulty interacting with other people.

And when you have those challenges, you get excluded a lot more often, like Michele said, right?

You're on the margins of society.

And so, if we want to live in a kind, civilized society, we have to be looking out for each other.

And every aspect of your life is probably something that somebody with autism is interested in, right?

Whether it's employment or what you do on the weekends or where you go to school or where you get healthcare, every aspect of your life is just as important for people with autism.

And Michele and Pam and the entire autism community have so many ideas to meet the rest of the community halfway and make it work for everybody.

- Pam, Dr.

Buchanan just mentioned the autism community.

Is there such a thing?

- I mean, there definitely is a community.

There's a huge community also turning into young adults and you know, starting to look for jobs and employment.

So yes, there is a community.

We just need to also be... We need to be aware that our community needs to be a part of the whole community, and being a part of a whole community and having, you know, safe places to work, to be employed and to be supported is really, really important.

And it's part of just for the sheer fact that, you know, work is part of our culture.

This is kind of who we are and what we do.

And you know, in society, you know, what do you do for eight, well, maybe 10, maybe 12 hours per day?

So, having a place where you can go and be part of what is considered our norm culture is definitely a community of individuals with autism that are looking to be included in that culture.

- Okay, quick follow up.

Let everybody know what Ethan & the Bean is.

I happen to know it from personal experience.

Your personal experience is much more powerful.

Please.

- Oh, thank you so much.

I mean, Ethan & the Bean is... Obviously, my son is Ethan, so this was born out of, you know, a parent wondering what your child is going to do when they turn 21 and where is their life going to go and how are they going to be a part of this big world?

So, Ethan & the Bean is a social enterprise, working and operating cafe in two locations, one in Morristown and one in Little Falls, and they operate fully functioning as a cafe, but we employ individuals with autism and intellectual disabilities.

So, we make room for them and we make a space for them and they work alongside their developing and typical peers.

- I know your Morristown location well.

And Michele- - Ah, thank you so much.

- Well, Michele, you talked about this in a previous interview.

Go on our website, steveadubato.org, check out previous interviews we've done with Michele on this.

Michele, the personal... You have so many connections, but your professional connection is one thing, your personal connection is another.

Please, remind people.

- Yeah.

So, Pam, love what you're doing and you know, - Thank you.

- we have started Buddy Treats and he's right over here sleeping.

Bud, get up.

He's right here.

- Oh my gosh.

He's super cute.

- And the reason why Buddy came about is for many reasons, but I've been in the autism community for decades at this point and I happen to have a grandson with autism and Suzanne knows him well.

And you know, I was a person who I thought I was the expert.

And when that happened, to be honest with you, I was just blindsided.

And I don't think anything prepares you for that.

But it was that point in time, and I'm sure, Pam, you get this where we, as a family, we gathered together and said, "Now what?

Now what?"

- It's a big, "Now what?"

That's for sure.

- It's a big now what.

And it changes everything that you thought about what was going to happen for the future.

Now what?

- Yes.

- So, long story short, Buddy Treats really came about because I got Buddy for Sebastian when he was two years, you know, younger, to, you know, elicit speech.

And not only did he elicit speech, but he became really the mascot, you know, for the, the Center for Autism.

He loves being around people.

He loves being around children and adults.

And I've always wanted to start a social enterprise because we need to make the opportunities for ourself, for our own community.

- That's right.

- And that's where Buddy Treats came about.

It's a wonderful dog treat that is very healthy, but it's made and it's packaged by people with autism and- - And all the proceeds, Michele, 'cause we're on PBS right now, remind people.

- All the proceeds go to the Center for Autism and dog rescue organizations.

- There it is.

Now, that's social enterprise.

Suzanne, let me ask you, as you listened to Pam and Michele talk about these social... Their respective, what they do with great teams, social enterprise initiatives, is that happening more and more, Suzanne?

- It is.

It is.

And just like Pam and Michele, it's people who already know the community's needs and are partnering with the larger business community to bring scalable models to help include- - What's that mean?

I'm sorry to interrupt, scalable models.

- So, and again, I'll hand it over to Pam 'cause she's so much better versed in this, but not just one store, you know, business.

- Oh, okay.

- But two, right?

And so, and looking for replicable models that can be done in multiple towns or statewide or nationally.

- That's what scalable- - But it's also about, you know, what... I'm sure Pam knows this, creating an environment - Yeah.

- where people with autism feel accepted.

Whether that's lighting, whether that's spacing, different things that we can do as a team to make somebody feel better being in the workplace.

So, there's all types of adaptations that we make.

- Is that the power of... Is that part of the discussion, Michele, around inclusion, what it really means- - Well, we all have, we all... Listen, think about work, think about how we feel about work, think about maybe we have certain habits that we will compensate for.

It's the same thing for people with autism.

You know, again, it's the idea of, like, falling off that cliff.

Can you imagine?

Can you imagine that, you know, your child is 18 or 21 and graduates, and now what?

And literally, now what?

You know, okay, they go in a program and all these things.

This is just another example of broadening the land, the horizons for people with... It doesn't mean that everyone should be working.

It means that if it makes sense and if it worked, whether it's four hours, and that's another thing, whether it's, you know, 20 hours a week, whether it's four hours a week.

And we also, as advocates, and Suzanne knows this, and I'm sure Pam knows this, as advocates, we have to advocate for that because there's a lot of disincentives to work in our community.

- Yeah.

- And we need to continue to fight, you know, for them.

- Pam, you're shaking your head when Michele was talking.

What do we mean disincentives?

Pam.

- I mean disincentives in some respects, I mean, just creating the... It's a huge, monumental undertaking to create your own social enterprise.

It's not an easy task.

And you know, there's a lot of fear still out there and rightfully so with parents, you know, you have... Taking care of an individual with autism is financially overwhelming.

It is, you know, it's... And obviously depending upon the spectrum and where you are on that spectrum.

So, creating a situation where you're having a social enterprise and you're working and you're running a business as it should be ran just like any other business, and then creating a safe place and a supportive work environment, all of these come with, you know, parents saying, "Well, if my son works and he makes X amount dollars per hour, then he doesn't receive, you know, funding from SSI, - Wow.

- SSDI, you know, Medicaid."

All of these things come into play and they do keep individuals from, you know, they want to work, they are inspired to work.

Our neurodiverse staff shows up way better than our typical staff.

I'm just going to be honest with you.

But in that environment you have, you know, in our environment, we have special education teachers.

- Right.

- We have ABA therapists.

And with that comes- - What does that mean?

- What does that mean?

That's an acronym, I'm not... - Applied Behavioral Analysis is our teaching methodology, our training methodology.

We utilize that because it can create a situation where you can create smart goals, you can measure.

- Right.

- So, you know, all of these things come into play to assess an individual, but during that assessment you have to assess them, are they receiving this type of funding?

And can they only work x amount of hours per week?

But you know, with them working within our, you know, workplace culture, it gives back to the community, it gives back to economic growth.

So they are contributing, but they do have restrictions sometimes in how much they can participate.

- Let me just, I'm sorry, Michele, just, Suzanne, if I can get you to comment on this before Michele jumps back in.

- Sure.

- Suzanne, let me ask you this.

As I'm listening to Michele, as I'm listening to Pam, obstacles, barriers, government programs, health insurance.

I sit there and I go, wait a minute.

If we're talking about the power of inclusion, what is the role of government, state, let's say state and federal government to start with?

What the heck is the role of government to create public policies that are more inclusive to the autism community?

Because it doesn't sound, at least from my outside perspective, that that's happening to the degree it needs to.

Please, Suzanne.

- Sure, well, I want to start off first to the parents who are considering a social enterprise or anybody who's concerned about their individual or their loved one's benefits, and say that our helpline, 800-4-AUTISM can walk you through your individual- - Say it again, and we'll put it up.

Say it again.

- Yep, 800-4-AUTISM.

- Go ahead.

- So, we have an amazing team who will spend as much time as you want, no issue too big or too small, to make sure that you can maximize everything that you're entitled to, and so that you can understand kind of the complex systems and policies that are in place.

Obviously, I think the intention behind a lot of these policies is good and it's designed to- - Is it?

- It is designed- - Suzanne's nice.

She's so nice.

- I- No, it is.

- No, is- - Honestly, do you know, - Suzanne.

- from a perspective, - What's the good intention?

- from an employer perspective- - Help us understand this.

One second.

Suzanne, what is the good intention?

- The good intention is to use the greatest amount of money for the greatest benefit.

And when you have such deep, profound needs across such a large population, not everybody gets everything that they need, but the intention is there.

There are more good people in government than bad.

- That, we're not questioning.

- Yeah.

- I'm in no way casting aspersions on people in government.

We're talking about government policies.

- Yeah.

- Michele, I've known you long enough to know.

- I think that- - I read your body language.

- The question- - Go ahead.

- I love Suzanne.

I love her, you know, like, and I get your point.

- You're part of the autism community, remember?

Together.

- But you know, we are together, doesn't mean we... We can respectfully, like, have discourse.

- 100%.

- And my discourse is, no way.

Meaning I don't think that someone is intentionally, our government is intentionally stopping people from working.

But does it matter?

Because they are.

We need policies that support gradual transition to work.

We need policies that are flexible.

Our policies right now, especially in New Jersey, that's, quote, "a work-first state," but then doesn't act like it.

- What's that mean?

- Means that you're supposed to look at work first before anything else.

- Okay.

- And, you know, does this affect the disproportionate number for people with autism is probably small, but it is still there.

And you know, why can't someone work four hours a week or four hours a month or 40 hours a week?

We don't have that type of flexibility right now.

- Because of government policies?

- There is some.

- Well, I can tell you, Suzanne, I have had parents go to DVR and it doesn't look like that.

- Hold on, no.

Stop with the acronyms, everyone.

- All right.

- Michele, what is... - So, I don't want to get into, like, you have DVR and DDD, - Well, what's it called?

- Division of Vocational Rehab and Division of Developmental Disabilities, okay?

That's exactly, right.

Steven, you're, like, a smart dude, okay?

It shouldn't be that hard.

You know, when you want to work- - To figure out the alphabets?

- Well, when you want to work, - Yeah, who knows what these things are?

- and you have, whether it's Medicaid, some type of a subsidy, okay, whatever that is, there should be from a flexibility standpoint.

And it's very, very difficult right now because parents get nervous that, you know, that they would lose benefits, and you know, and then they pull back and how could I blame them?

You know, like, "Wait a minute.

My child's in danger of losing benefits?"

- And that's, I just, I can tell you - Good.

- from our perspective, even just today, I just got off the phone with social security today, I had to have my phone call - Exactly.

- for today.

- And it is so nerve wracking.

You're afraid to tell, you know, the government, you know, that you have a special needs trust, that you have... Are you part of ABLE, which is, you know, - Wait, what does that mean?

- ability to work.

- To be part of ABLE?

- ABLE is, oh gosh.

- It's like a college saving plan.

- Does the autism community have its own separate language?

- Yes, we do.

- Yes, we do have - Okay.

- our own separate language - Just wanted to make sure.

and our own acronyms.

- Good, Pam.

- And even from a perspective of an employer, you know, we're employing individuals, right?

We want them to have competitive wages.

- Yes.

- And we want to pay them above minimum wage, which we know minimum wage sometimes is not a way to make a living.

But again, going back to that flexibility, because if you venture over that $2,000 mark with anything in your name, you are, you know, the individuals, you know, with disabilities need, you know, that is a big red flag and that's flagged immediately.

- What happens to that two grand?

- Flagged.

- You're not allowed to have more than $2,000 in your name at any one given time.

- In a trust?

- You can lose... No, not in a trust.

- You can lose your benefits.

- It's your Medicaid- - Oh, okay.

Suzanne- - Bottom line, you can't have savings.

If you try to save money and it goes over 2,000- - You can't do that.

- You're flagged.

- And so, what do you do?

- Suzanne.

- What do you do in the respect of, like, even from an employer's perspective, we tried going down some of these avenues in order to get workforce development support through either DDD or DVRS, which is Department of Developmental Disabilities or Department of Vocational Rehabilitation.

We went through those.

The paperwork and the administrative work that goes along with that to keep up with it is an absolute beyond burdensome.

- Is it a nightmare?

- on a small business, - Pam, is it a nightmare?

- It's a nightmare.

- So Suzanne, let me ask you this.

If the Sherrill administration wanted to, not perfect, but dramatically improve the situation that's being described here that's so... It sounds complex, cumbersome, and "a nightmare," put Pam's word out there, what the heck would they do?

Couple things, Suzanne, go ahead.

- Sure.

So.

one of the things that I'm not an expert in, but I know that it exists and there's some flexibilities with a program called NJWINS, which is that employees with autism can earn more money and have some flexibility rather than just keeping their assets below the $2,000.

So, we can look more into that.

The governor, just in her proposed budget, put an additional $154 million more into the IDD system, the Intellectual and Developmental Disability system.

And obviously, when you're dealing with Medicaid, you're dealing with large sums of money.

We have to make sure that they're used efficiently and effectively.

- Of course.

Absolutely.

- So, bureaucracy does what it does, right?

It creates a lot of roles that are not matching up with people's day-to-day lives, right?

And there are changes in behavior on a moment-to-moment basis or their preferences.

"I can work four hours," "I can work 10-" - So, what is one... Sorry for interrupting, Suzanne.

What is one improvement that would have less bureaucracy, less paperwork, less people working and getting paid with tax dollars?

And we don't even know what the benefits are.

And it goes more to the people you're talking about right now.

Suzanne, then Michele, I'm coming to you.

- So, I think a lot of our services right now are billed in 15-minute increments.

And there could be (indistinct)- - I'm sorry.

- What have we talking- Where is this from?

- Just don't even try, Steve.

- What is 15 minutes of what?

- Don't even try.

- It's like insurance.

- Right.

- It's billed like insurance.

- But these are human beings - It's a billable - with human- - 15 minutes per unit.

- It's incredibly (indistinct).

- I can tell you this.

Let me clarify something 'cause I run the Center for Autism.

90- - Explain to folks what that is Michele.

- Center for Autism is an adult day program for people with autism and more on the serious level.

Let me say more, you know, tiers are higher.

- Got it.

- Profound needs.

- Don't want to get into tiers, but their needs are more complex.

We have been able to provide great services because of the state and what they do provide in terms of funding.

So I don't want to in any way, you know, make this about the state.

I understand what Suzanne is saying when you look at it from this way, from a macro standpoint.

- How about from a delivery of services, Michele?

- It's different.

So, that's the problem and that's the challenge.

And I think we need to somehow individualize that group of people that want to work, that want to work and somehow create a program.

And it's going to be hard because the federal government has something to do with this, okay?

With Medicaid.

And so, what we need to do is take that complexity and allow people transitional time.

That's what I'd call it.

It's the only words I can come that would make sense for everyone here.

Meaning let's say you work three to six months, all right?

You work three to six months and it's working and you can continue.

Now, maybe you gradually decrease, let's say, your benefits.

You understand, it's a gradual decrease - Right.

- Let's say you lose your job or it's not working, which many, many times that happens.

- Yeah.

- There's no penalty.

You know, things like that I think are commonsense.

- Michele, hold on one sec.

Can I get a quick answer to this?

Every situation, every person is different, every situation is different.

There's no disrespect to the 15 minutes.

I don't know exactly what that means.

I'm sure that has something to do with what billable hours are?

- Yes, exactly.

- But- - Right.

- Suzanne, I'm going to give you a minute.

Pam, you a minute.

It's not to rebut, just to contribute and add to what Michele just said.

Pam first and then Suzanne.

- I mean, just coming from a state level, you know, being an employer, you know, we have a hard time even securing grants for workforce development.

And we spend a lot of time and money and energy on just maintaining and employing individuals with disabilities.

I mean, in every organization that I've talked to, No Limits Cafe, Beloved Bath, all of these around in our New Jersey area, the number one issue is having funds in order to meet payroll, to pay the individuals.

Because even though you're running a social enterprise, we haven't even been able to secure a grant from the state.

And it's- - You get no money from the state?

- No.

- Zero?

- Zero.

- Oh boy.

- I mean it's really incredible.

Like, what do we have?

We can get loans all day long.

We can get loans.

- But grants are different.

- It's a totally different animal.

And then, when you're trying to have a special education teacher, a board certified analyst, and you know, trained staff to support the staff that you are training, and then you want to take it one step further and bring individuals in that are like-minded businesses within the community so that they can partake in our training program, so they can continue to support additional individuals with disabilities in their workplace, it's almost impossible.

- Pam.

- I'm sorry, I hate when I'm so rude and interrupt, but I also know - It's all right.

- that I'm finite on time.

Suzanne, final word, go.

- Sure, I think, you know, we started- - You want to leave us with a positive message?

- I will.

- Michele might see it and- - Starting with the- - Pam and Michele may see it differently, but go ahead.

- The power of inclusion, I think this is something we can all agree on, obviously.

- Yes.

- Inclusion is essential in the workplace and it's essential in the community in terms of everyone's safety.

One of the things we've been doing for the last two years is partnering with law enforcement to identify autism-friendly law enforcement practices, right?

The most important thing you can do as an individual with autism or as somebody who has a loved one with autism is introduce them to your local law enforcement prior to a crisis, prior to needing to call them, right?

The fact that they know that individual is everything.

We've also been working with them on mock pullovers and blue envelopes and all sorts of things.

We have a ton of information on our website and call us anytime.

We'll share more.

- Let's do this, first of all, go on everybody's respective websites.

Also, let me say this.

I appreciate what you were saying, Pam, about making payroll every two weeks, and I want to... I should have disclosed this early on, at the beginning.

The Center for Autism and the North Ward Center where Michele is the CEO, the Executive Director, that our dad started many years ago, is a long time underwriter of our programming.

We would not be able to do what we do in terms of public awareness if not for that support, as well as a whole range of other foundations and corporations.

No disrespect.

No direct government grants.

And we're not criticizing it.

I'm just making it clear.

So, listen, I... - Yeah.

- Michele, can we agree on this, 'cause we've been talking about this offline.

You've been talking to our producers.

Let's continue the effort to create greater public awareness.

And even though there's an autism community, that does not mean it's monolithic.

There are different perspectives and we can respectfully have a discourse.

- Sure.

- To Michele, to Suzanne, and to Pam, I cannot thank you enough for joining us.

Autism.

- Thank you, Steve.

- You got it, the power - Thank you.

- of inclusion.

We'll keep doing our job and they're doing a great job every day.

I'm Steve Adubato and more importantly, on behalf of our entire team, thank you so much for watching.

We'll see you next time.

- [Narrator] Think Tank with Steve Adubato is a production of the Caucus Educational Corporation.

Funding has been provided by Valley Bank.

Hackensack Meridian Health.

Horizon Blue Cross Blue Shield of New Jersey.

Rutgers University Newark.

PSEG Foundation.

The Russell Berrie Foundation.

NJM Insurance Group.

Robert Wood Johnson Foundation.

And by New Jersey Sharing Network.

Promotional support provided by NJ.Com.

And by BestofNJ.com.

- (Man sighs).

(Quiet park, birds chirping)