(upbeat music) - Hi, everyone.

Steve Adubato.

We kick off the program, part of our "Media Matters" series, produced in cooperation with our Center on Media Leadership with Ian O'Connor.

Talk about a sports media leader.

Ian O'Connor is the author of the book, "Out of the Darkness: The Mystery of Aaron Rodgers," also a columnist for The Athletic.

Ian, it's great to have you with us again.

- Good to be here with Steve, as always.

- This book, why is it important?

And why is he important?

- Well, he's one of the greatest quarterbacks of all time.

I'd put him fifth on the list of all time players at a position that's the most important position in American team sports.

And he was arguably, no, not arguably, he was, and is, the most polarizing player of his generation.

His views on the vaccine and conspiracy theories, and combine that with very candid public speaker, a fearless public speaker, is not afraid to anger the masses with his views.

And is a guy who threw the football probably better than anyone has ever thrown it.

And that doesn't mean he was as great as Tom Brady, who won seven championships, to Aaron Rodgers' one, with the Packers.

But as far as actually the skill set it requires to be a great quarterback, I would say Rodgers and Patrick Mahomes are the two at the top of that list.

And so, yeah, I always found him to be a compelling, mysterious figure, and wanted to take on this project and sort of write the definitive story of his life and career, and hopefully I pulled that off.

- When he was with the Jets and things went wrong, there were times I noticed he would blame other players.

I saw him post-game press conferences, point out other players who didn't do what they were supposed to do.

I'm not a fan of that.

I'm a leadership coach.

Make mistakes all the time as a leader.

But you don't blame your people on your team in public.

Whatever you do privately, different story.

Am I wrong?

Did he point out players?

A and B?

What would be the reason he would do that as the leader, captain, with a C, and a quarterback of the team?

- And you could argue, it's wrong, it's certainly a very valid opinion.

I would say it's the majority opinion.

But I will say this.

When you ask a quarterback the question, what happened on that throw that was intercepted?

And the truth is that the receiver ran the wrong route, you could say, well, listen, as a journalist, I want the truth.

I don't want a fake answer where you're covering for a teammate, which a lot of guys give.

And so he's going to give you the truth, the way he sees it, anyway.

And so and so, Garrett Wilson, whoever it was, ran the wrong route.

- It was.

- In that case then, the one interception he threw that he blamed another receiver, but it doesn't matter.

I think when you ask a question, you want a truthful answer.

And so you could argue that he should give an honest answer.

Now, he did that in Green Bay a few times, and angered some teammates there as well.

But I will point out, which is surprising to a lot of football fans, that the vast majority of his teammates really like him, and like playing with him.

And I had someone in the NFL who'd been in the league for a long time, decades, who knows hundreds upon hundreds of players who hates Aaron Rodgers.

And he told me, "Despite my personal feelings, what I will say to you is, I have never met a player who doesn't like him."

Now, there are a few out there, maybe more than a few, but being around the Jets, they revered him, particularly year one when he came in before the injury.

And I know interviewing dozens and dozens of Packers, they had the same feelings about him.

Now you'll have a few that have the opposite view, and express that publicly, but he is going to give you a truthful answer.

And there are people who believe he does it the wrong way, like you do.

That's a very valid opinion.

But when I'm a reporter, and I ask a question, "What happened on that play?"

I don't want you covering for somebody.

I want you to tell me what honestly happened.

- Ian, it's not my job to express my point of view here, but I'll say this.

As a student of leadership, as a coach of leadership, and that's what it means to be a quarterback.

I don't care whether you're a quarterback of a football team or a media organization, whatever.

See, you call it a candid answer.

I say, someone asked me who screwed up on a chyron on the air, the graphic.

Who screwed up with the audio?

Why did such and such go wrong?

I don't think it's the place that a leader to be candid and tell whomever asked, who did it.

'Cause the truth is, I'm a big believer, and you own it publicly.

Aaron Rodgers sees it differently.

I respect your point of view, but let me ask you this, by the way, the book, "Out of the Darkness: The Mystery of Aaron Rodgers," check it out.

I'm wanna shift gears.

This, as I said, is part of a series we're doing on "Media Matters."

We're talking to sports media journalists like yourself.

Check out our website at a new center called the Abubato Center for Media Leadership, talking to people in media about why it matters.

Question, how much has sports media changed in just the last five years?

- Just, the social media has just changed it so much.

I mean, I can't even recognize the industry I'm in right now compared to the one I entered in the 1980s, but it's just, the one thing that is a little sad, I guess, if you're a sports journalist, is that the athlete now has the opportunity to speak directly to the fan base, and cut out the middleman or middlewoman, just via social media.

And I think there is a distance now between athletes and sports journalists that wasn't there in the past.

And I think that the pursuit of doing really human stories is a little more difficult now because of that.

And because athletes today, superstars, they really feel like they're under 24/7 surveillance with social media, with everyone having a camera in their hands.

And it's just, it's created a gap there.

So if you're a really good sports journalist who cares, and really works at the craft, you try to do everything possible to bridge that gap.

And that's what I try to do.

And you need to show some humanity in your work, I think to successfully get there.

And hopefully I've done that.

But I would say just social media and athletes today, feeling like they're constantly being watched, under surveillance.

If you say something anywhere, it's going to be on camera.

And that does create a little distrust in the process that you have to overcome - Real quick.

The Athletic, part of the New York Times family, media family.

And by the way, go on The Athletic website, check out Ian's work.

I'm curious about this.

The biographies you have written, other than on Danny Hurley, check out our interview, our full program, with Ian O'Connor about his book, "Never Stop."

It's all about Danny Hurley.

This book he wrote about Aaron Rodgers, but you also wrote about Jeter.

I love that book.

You wrote about Derek Jeter.

Any other biographies?

- [Ian] We have Coach K at Duke.

- [Steve] Mike Krzyzewski.

- [Ian] Unauthorized.

I did an unauthorized biography of Arnold Palmer and Jack Nicklaus.

That's going back ways and- - [Steve] Yep.

- My book on Belichick was probably the toughest assignment I've ever had in my life.

To do an unauthorized book on Belichick was like doing an unauthorized study of the Kremlin.

It just, it took everything I had, and I think I pulled it off, a definitive profile of who he was, and is, and how he built that empire in New England.

And it was really, really difficult to get information from inside that program.

But I know I pulled it off.

And frankly think I told- - Great book.

- Well, thank you.

Yeah, and that was my Mount Everest, if you will.

- What, and by the way, great, interesting personality with Belichick, leave it at that.

Hey, I'm gonna go to the Giants, I promise.

Unauthorized means what?

- Means you don't have their consent to do it.

- Got it.

- But that doesn't mean they won't cooperate.

I will say one thing about Aaron Rodgers.

At the end of the process, he gave me a two-hour session at his home in Malibu on the ocean to go over the negatives in the book to give him a chance to counter them or put them in context.

And it made it a better book.

- Okay, by the way, also read the book, because the relationship, or the lack of relationship between Aaron Rodgers and his father and his family is worth it just for that.

Hey, New York football, Giants, this is the Post.

I get the Post on the New York Times every day.

I'm the last person who still gets newspapers.

John Harbaugh comes to the New York football Giants.

Why is it a big deal for those of us who are Giants fans, and think he's gonna turn everything around?

Ian, by the way, check out Ian's article in The Athletic on this topic.

The inside story of the Giants, John Harbaugh deal, and the talks that saved it.

What's big deal, Ian?

- In my 40 years of covering sports in New York, it's the biggest hire that Giants have ever made.

It's the first time they've ever hired a coach who had already won a Super Bowl.

He's arguably, and most likely the most accomplished coach they've ever hired.

They've been really bad for 14 years.

And when they hired Tom Coughlin, by the way, they had been in the Super Bowl four years before that.

So to me this is bigger than that.

This is like the Jets hiring Bill Parcells, the Knicks hiring Pat Riley.

It's really, really big.

They needed a CEO with credibility who would walk into a locker room, and command immediate respect.

And with his track record as a Super Bowl champ, 180 regular season victories, 13 playoff victories, he brings that credibility on day one.

And so, after four straight failed hires following Coughlin, they absolutely had to get this one right.

And I think they hit a home run.

- Question.

As a Giants fan, when the Giants, and there's, I guess it's the HBO series, "Hard Knocks."

When the Giants did not re-sign Saquon Barkley and he goes to the Philadelphia Eagles, we have a whole bunch of folks watching in Southern New Jersey.

Our executive, our senior producer, Chloe Swift is a Eagles fan.

A bunch of others are too.

Don't ask me why.

But he goes to the Eagles.

So now you've got this guy, Jackson Dart, 22, 23 years old?

Who's the quarterback of the Giants, who's supposed to be the savior.

Doesn't have Saquon Barkley, one of the greatest running backs in modern times.

What are the Giants' chances of winning with a quarterback?

That quarterback?

A great quarterback, without the rest of the team?

- It's a very good question.

He's not a great quarterback yet.

He figures to be one someday.

- Potential.

- Potential.

Yeah, right.

But I know that I was on the phone with John Harbaugh a half hour after he agreed to his deal with the Giants that Saturday.

And he told me he expects to be in the playoffs next year.

And I was like, "Well, you do realize they were four and 13 last year, right?"

Yeah, so he said, "No, I looked at the tape, I studied Jackson Dart, the quarterback, some other pieces on the roster.

I liked the talent I see."

Didn't really have a great explanation as to why they were four and 13, but thinks they're good enough with the returning injured players like Nabers and Skattebo to go to the playoffs.

And listen, Giants fans needed to hear that.

They've been terrible for so long.

They needed a coach to come in on the record and say those words, and he did that.

So John Harbaugh, at age 63, Super Bowl champ, is not shying away from anything about the NFC East, or anything else next year.

I think he's looking at trying to go 10 and seven, and at least be a wild card in the playoffs.

I think he's got a realistic chance to pull that off.

- Last question, what's the deal between the Giants fans up in here in northern New Jersey and New York and the, I was gonna say Phillies, the Eagles fans in Philly?

Why do we not like each other?

- Well right now, the Giants fans have a lot more to complain about because the Eagles have been dominant, and the Giants have been the opposite of dominant for years.

It's a little bit like the Red Sox and Yankee fan rivalry back in the day.

And yeah, right now the Eagles have the upper hand.

Their fan base is very, very, very passionate, like New Yorkers are.

And I think seeing the Giants and Eagles in a playoff game where the teams are relatively evenly matched, which hasn't happened.

The last time they played in the playoffs, the Eagles blew out Daboll's first team.

But I think that would be an unbelievable environment.

- Be awesome.

- Yeah.

So let's hope that Harbaugh can get the Giants to that point.

And if that happened next year or the year after that, you'd have a hell of an environment for a post-season game.

- Follow Ian O'Connor and The Athletic.

It's connected to the New York Times, that little newspaper over in New York.

Ian, you are terrific.

We cannot thank you enough.

Also, check out Ian's interview we did about his book, "Never Stop," about Danny Hurley.

He's a great sports journalist, and that's why sports media matters.

Thank you, Ian, all the best.

- You're the best, Steve.

Thank you, take care.

- You got it, stay with us.

We'll be right back.

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