[INSPRATIONAL MUSIC STING] - Hi everyone, Steve Adubato.

We kick off the program talking about trauma, what you need to know about why it matters.

We're joined by the former governor of the great state of New Jersey, Jim McGreevey, Executive Director of the New Jersey Reentry Corporation.

And Dr.

Elie Aoun, who is in fact, Assistant Clinical Professor of Psychology at Columbia University.

Thank you both for joining us.

Governor McGreevey, we've talked about this, you actually pitched this, you called me and said, "Steve, we need to do this.

This is an important topic."

A, why?

and B, why is a doctor involved?

- So Steve, our... Our entire criminal justice system is focused on guilt or innocence, in a sense, we have a system that only understands two components, and whether it's prosecution, whether it's from indictment to adjudication, to parole and probation, guilt or innocence.

And so what you know, we do in New Jersey Reentry is we recognize that about 96 to 97% of people are gonna return back into civil society, they're gonna be your neighbors once again.

But if we do everything right in terms of providing services when they come home, whether it's you know, federal estate support, whether it's health insurance and even a job, but we don't take care of what happened from the neck up, there's a high probability, I would argue, there's a propensity that people are gonna commit a crime once again.

And so it's understanding that mental illness.

Our mutual friend, Phil Alagia said, 25 years ago when he walked through a county jail, there was a high propensity of individuals that were suffering from addiction.

We solved the addiction crisis.

But what's happening today is that the mental health crisis is exploding for any number of reasons.

Our purpose is not to grapple with the origins of the mental health crisis, but to address it.

And that's why Dr.

Aoun is here, because when people go through prison or combat trauma, they get into survival mentality, fight or flight, they no longer start thinking thoughtfully and rationally in terms of sound decisions.

And with that, Dr.

Aoun.

- Dr.

Aoun, explain also in context of what Jim McGreevey is saying.

Explain what trauma is, and put this conversation in context.

- Right.

So if you're talking about trauma, we have to separate between trauma that is clinically significant trauma that rises to the level of causing people to have mental health symptoms, mental health disorders, or trauma that affects a person's functioning on a day-to-day basis, but does not affect... Does not result in a psychiatric diagnoses or symptoms.

Both are bad, both are things that should be avoided, but one is associated with pathology, significant need for treatment, and can be associated with a person's functional status deteriorating, and that can lead to them engaging in criminal behaviors, and entering the justice system.

- Well, let's talk about entering the justice system.

Governor, you understand prisoner reentry more than most.

What goes on for most people... Many people who are in prison?

And what is the impact of the prison experience on many, as it relates to existing trauma and inflicting more trauma?

- So Steve, great question.

So, when some... When a guy's you know, surviving, whether at East Jersey Prison or Trenton, and candidly... And I can give example after example, but prisons are tough places, where the people we serve, whether they're combat veterans, whether they're former prisoners, whether people suffering from addiction.

Life is hard and filled with trauma.

And Dr.

Aoun will explain that people get into a survival mentality.

And so at the end of the day, and a great example, a good buddy of mine who was in Raleigh State Prison, somebody knocked his tray off, the guy fought almost to the death over a tray of food, and it's about survival.

And the reality is, that type of reflexive violence with the inability to think and to understand what just happened, once you go outside into the community, it doesn't work, you can't live in a civil society.

And so whether it's PTSD with our veterans, whether it's that type of trauma, as well as with our victims of domestic violence, part of it is, is cognitive behavioral thinking.

Literally working with people Steve, to help them rewire and rethink how they approach.

- In light of what the governor just said, Doctor, to what degree is the trauma that Jim McGreevey is talking about, particularly in prison, impacted by race?

There's a racial component to this, because the disproportionate number of people who are incarcerated, are people of color.

And so therefore, math just would seem to dictate that the disproportionate of people dealing with... Number of people dealing with trauma, vis-a-vis prisons, are people of color.

Is that a fact, Doctor?

- That is a fact.

The truth is, trauma affects everyone, from every race.

But people of developed ethnic minorities, or other minority groups tend to be affected by trauma... (audio cutting out) Something we call the "Minority Stress Theory", where you know, existing in society, that's stressful.

Learning how to coordinate... To live with your neighbors, to do all of those things, that's stressful.

But when your minority status itself become a stressor, that adds to your experience of social... Social Stress Theory, and that's what we call Minority... Minority Stress Theory.

When you compound that with trauma, someone who's been traumatized, someone who's been assaulted, someone who's afraid for their life, who tends to see the world as a negative place, as an unsafe place, that's a recipe for things going really poorly.

- Doc, can you just talk about the trauma cycle to Steve?

What this cycle happens, and how it actually worsens and worsens, it becomes more and more violent.

- Absolutely.

So, when... When you've been traumatized, it affects how you see the world, you... I mean, before someone's been traumatized, they see the world as a constructive, supportive place.

Your neighbors, your parents, your friends, your family, they're all there to take care of you.

And then when you've been traumatized, you learn maladaptively that the only way to take care of yourself is that it's every man or woman for themselves.

And that causes you to isolate, that causes you to regress, and think about the world as a negative, dark, dark space.

And what you do when you're in that mentality, is that rather than building and seeking supportive sources, you tend to fall back into the patterns that lead you to be more vulnerable, to being more victimized, to more trauma, to more engagement with the justice system.

- It's a cycle?

- Yes.

And it actually Steve, worsens.

I mean, I had a friend of mine who's a nun, and she goes to Trenton State, she said, "Look, if I could redesign prisons, I'd send people to convents, because what you're doing is you're taking young guys, you're throwing them into prison, where by definition it's violent, it's all about survivalist.

Nobody's talking about right or wrong in prison, they're talking about survival.

And that's what you learn, and when you come out, and somebody bumps you in the subway or on the path, what you immediately do is, it's a threat to your survival."

And so that type of mentality is what we're trying to grapple with.

- [Steve] Do we have a realistic ability to quote, "break the cycle of trauma"?

A, and B, what is the role of government in doing that?

Doctor, can we break it?

- Yeah- - Got two-minutes left.

Go ahead.

- The nice thing about when things become a vicious cycle, is that the way to break that cycle is to create kinks at any point in the cycle, we could create those kinks at the level of the government, at the level of the punishment, we can create those kinks at the level of the treatments that we're offering the person.

But it's all about extracting the person from that cycle, whether by providing them mental health services, vocational support, occupational resources, or better incarceration conditions, improving the traumatic circumstances during incarceration, that will pull the person out of that... The cycle they're in- - And Steve, if I can just jump in and just say, also judges.

Judge Cory, she, particularly with combat veterans, is doing a great job.

Basically, these combat veterans, PTSD, they've been multiple deployments, and he's bringing them in for serious crimes, having them plead guilty and saying, "All right, we're gonna work with you.

I'm giving you psychiatric attention, I want you to work with me on this road, and then we'll renegotiate your plea down the road."

But the important point of this is, judges or lawyers, it's a lot easier to send somebody to prison, than to send somebody for psychiatric treatment.

And the same way we address addiction in this country, we have to address mental health, or we're not gonna get this right.

- Jim McGreevey, a former governor, who is also the Executive Director of the New Jersey Reentry Corporation.

And Dr.

Elie Aoun, who is the Assistant Clinical Professor of Psychology at Columbia University.

Governor, every time you call and reach out, there's an important issue to explore, and you brought the doctor to us, so we say thank you.

Thank you to both of you, we will not... This will not be the last conversation we have about trauma.

Thank you, gentlemen.

- Thanks brother.

Thank you.

- You got it.

- Thank you, Doc.

- You guys stay with us, we'll be right back.

- [Narrator] State of Affairs with Steve Adubato is a production of the Caucus Educational Corporation.

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